Wow, Who is suppose to be the monitor of this thread? I have seen threads locked when a couple of people started getting personal, much less bad mouthing a whole country. " I THINK ITS TIME TO LOCK IT "
Sorry Steve but I have to call out your recollection of history. I’ve listened to the Pub version of history before in person and still don’t quite agree with it. First, one of the major causes of WWII was America’s isolationism stance. America passed the Neutrality Acts in 1935-37. These created an embargo on all war item shipments. Americans were not allowed to travel on belligerent ships, and no belligerents were allowed loans in the United States. This in effect took one of the major defenders of freedom off the table. Something, by the way, that everyone is clamoring for us to do again. The actual war in Europe began with a series of events: · Germany took Austria (1938) and the Sudtenland (1938) · The Munich Pact was created (1938) with England and France agreeing to allow Hitler to keep the Sudtenland as long as no further expansion occurred. · Hitler and Mussolini created the Rome-Berlin Axis military alliance to last 10 years (1939) · Japan entered an alliance with Germany and Italy (1939) · The Moscow-Berlin Pact occurred promising nonaggression between the two powers (1939) · Hitler invaded Poland (1939) · England and France declared war on Germany (September 30, 1939). Hitler continued to expand taking Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, and Belgium. In June, 1940, France fell to Germany. Obviously, this quick expansion got America nervous and the US began to build the military up. The final break in isolationism began with the Lend Lease Act (1941) whereby America was allowed to "sell, transfer title to, exchange, lease, lend, or otherwise dispose of, to any such government....any defense article." Great Britain promised not to export any of the lend lease materials. After this, America built a base on Greenland and then issued the Atlantic Charter (August 14, 1941) - a joint declaration between Great Britain and the US about the purposes of war against fascism. The Battle of the Atlantic began with German U-Boats wreaking havoc. This battle would last throughout the war. America declared War against German and Japan on December 7th, 1941 So you can see Steve, that America officially joined the war a mere 15 months after England did after having to overcome a strong Desire by the population to remain isolated from the event. Also remember during that time the number of American Merchant Marines that lost their lives sailing the much needed resources needed by England to stand up to Germany, and the number of American Fliers that left the US Air Force in order to fly and die for the RAF to slow down the bombers. It is absolutely true that the civilian population suffered tremendously from the raids by Germany, but I’m not sure a categorization that America just sat back and watched really has anything to do with reality. Beginning in 1942 after America joined the war, the events in Europe unfolded as follows: · Early German Victories - The Germans successfully fought off the Russians in 1942. England was being bombed, and U-Boats harassed American shipping. · North Africa - The allies led by General Dwight D. Eisenhower fought against the French forces who were working in conjunction with Germany in Morocco and Algeria. The allies did take Tunisia in May, 1943. · Battle of the Atlantic - The allies were able to control the Atlantic sea lanes by May, 1943 though the battle continued to rage throughout the rest of the war. · Italy - The allies captured Sicily in July, 1943 leading to Mussolini's downfall. The Italians then joined the allies. Germany still occupied much of Italy including Rome. · Normandy Invasion - This began on D-Day, June 6, 1944. General Eisenhower led the allies onto the beaches of France. They were able to liberate Paris on August 25, 1944. · Battle of the Bulge - Germany launched a counteroffensive in December 1944. General Patton led the 3rd Army to victory by January, 1945. · The Battle of Germany - Early in 1945, Russians invaded Germany from the East while the allies moved in from the West defeating Germany. Hitler along with many top officials committed suicide. Germany surrendered on May 8, 1945 - V-E Day (Victory in Europe Day). Hmmmmm… The Germans successfully fought off the Russians in 1942. England was being bombed, and U-Boats harassed American shipping. All of Europe and North Africa was under German control. That really sounds like the war was virtually won by December 1941. Not sure how your history book came to that conclusion. Oh, and both Vietnam and Korea were UN wars supported by the United States not United States initiated events. Need to re-read those chapters too. Steve, need to read up on the Marshall plan. The plan was in operation for four years beginning in April 1948. During that period some US$13 billion in economic and technical assistance were given to help the recovery of the European countries that had joined in the Organization for European Economic Co-operation. This $13 billion was in the context of a U.S. GDP of $258 billion in 1948 (or 5% of our GDP for that year), and was on top of $12 billion in American aid to Europe between the end of the war and the start of the Plan. By 1952 as the funding ended, the economy of every participant state had surpassed pre-war levels; for all Marshall plan recipients, output in 1951 was 35% higher than in 1938. The Organization for European Economic Cooperation took the leading role in allocating funds, and the ECA arranged for the transfer of the goods. The American supplier was paid in dollars, which were credited against the appropriate European Recovery Program funds. The European recipient, however, was not given the goods as a gift, but had to pay for them (though not necessarily at once, on credit etc.) in local currency, which was then deposited by the government in a counterpart fund. This money, in turn, could be used by the ERP countries for further investment projects. Most of the participating ERP governments were aware from the beginning that they would never have to return the counterpart fund money to the U.S.; it was eventually absorbed into their national budgets and "disappeared". So as you can see you were repaying yourself, not the USA. Thought some actual facts might be welcomed… just sayin….. Jamie
It's the free for all portion of the board, meaning anything within reason goes. Since Steve is contributing to the topic, it is by his discretion what remains open and what ultimately gets closed. Trust me, there have been FAR MORE controversial topics than this one....ones that have gone on for months on end, this is child's play compared to those. Since I don't exactly understand what is going on in this one, this should be my last post. Just wanted to clear up the whole locking of the thread portion
Huge post! cant cover it point by point I'll be here forever. But: I count at least 26 months there. You sure on that? I thought USA declared war on Japan and Germany declared war on the USA? Anyhow, I dont want to come across as being in any way ungrateful for the US involvement in WWII and all the lives that were given, it seems it's being taken that way and that's far from it. But really do "you" have to ram it down our throats how grateful we should be all the time, 65 years later? Which part of Europe are you from? The part who's ass we kicked or the part who's ass we saved? Isn't that one of your favoured bumper stickers? Like I say, it's arrogant and you (and others) shouldn't be surprised if people get annoyed by such statements and the people who say them.
Steve, Jamie, I was actually going to point out that sucesses that the USA had in WWII, were probably more analogous to watching a pro-wrestling match. It seems to me that the USA was the "fresh partner" who would come in full of energy and vigour. As strong and effective a fighting force that the US provided timing co-incidentally played a role in the momentum of the war. Had Hitler decided to go after the US instead of European countries to their west and the Soviet Union to the east the net impact of WWII on the USA may well have been quite different. Personally I find talk of whose army is better a little silly. On any given day if you were to put a Brit unit against an American unit against a Canadian unit etc. and all are equipped similarly the result would more than likely be a toss up.
steve, arguably much of the what the world perceives as "american arrogance" stems from the worlds ignorance of americans and who we are as a people i am not quite sure where this comes from exactly.................... perhaps their perception of "american arrogance" comes from finding a random bumper sticker on the car bumper of some run of the mill loser? certainly would not come from the vast majority of people i know and associate with just saying the best rob
again trying to go back to the issue of the post and stop all the "ANTI AMERICA" Bull S#$% as its getting old and there are threads for that or perhaps somebody could start a new thread that says "I'm a true hater and i really hate america like nobody else ever could" once again........on racial profiling as it were........shall we? racial profiling is a political issue and whether or not you agree with it or not is a matter of personal perspective. however, i think jamie hit it smack on the head with his post about the "blue hairs" its a very realistic analogy of a controversail issue rob
OK.. so that's what you get for typing, doing math, and watching the Olympics at the same time. 26 months it is. Sorry. Everybody declared war about the same time so let's just say we were suddenly in it up to our necks. Actually I kind of feel like the song.. "It's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way." OK.. before you go off, I was just kidding. Are we perfect? No way. We stick our foot in it with the best of them. But I also believe that we are the most dependable folks out there. If you need us, we will be there. Even if we have to convince half the country and the rest of the world that it's the right thing. As for the weapons of mass destruction.. 2 theories. First, Sadam was convinced by his Scientists that he had them. So can one blame someone who is spying on them that if they were totally convinced that they had them they the spies would believe that too? Second theory is that there is still a whole lot of sand out there... they keep digging up new stuff every day. Did we go into Iraq before we should have? I think so. But now that we are there we need to make sure that it is stable before we leave. As I've said before, if the Muslims want us to go home, just have the peace loving Muslims stop killing each other and we'll be out of there in the morning. So for most of us I think the thing is we don't try to be arrogant. We just have bad reactions to being treated like the smelly uncle with the big truck that you call upon when you need him but flip your nose up at when you decide you don't. Just sayin' Are we better than everyone else? Nope. But if you need us, I don't think there is anyone else in the world you want in your corner. So I'm all about putting our dicks back in our pants and start talking about the real important stuff like drinking and tits! Jamie
