Discussion in 'Free For All' started by Michael F., Mar 16, 2010.
Thanks Ed, I hope you are right for all of us.
"Sick Around the World"
One of the things that makes it hard for Americans to get their heads around a lot of problems is the myopia that results from starting with the belief that everything is just a little better in the U.S.A. than anywhere else. So, it's not easy to get them to consider facts which suggest anything otherwise.
For those Americans who do retain some curiosity, and others who would like to know more about how health care is provided, and financed, in five quite different, developed countries, I can recommend the following:
FRONTLINE: video: watch full programs online | PBS
Click on "Sick Around the World" dated April 15, 2008, just a little more than halfway down the page.
Nice link V - this should air on prime time US TV
Here's the full link to the video,
FRONTLINE: sick around the world: watch the full program | PBS
12 minutes of reality anyone interested in the healthcare debate really ought to watch.
Also essential watching for those in the UK who think Labour havent achieved anything in 10 years.
I'm glad you liked it, Steve. It's an eye opener, for those who take the time to watch. There are many high points to it, including the emphasis, in the UK, on preventive care.
I was impressed with the system of providing medical care in Japan, where everyone is required to have health insurance, then the costs of insurance and medical care are regulated by the government, leading to the Japanese people consuming 2X per capita, per annum, more medical services than are consumed in the U.S., at half the cost.
The U.S. is both the most expensive place to receive medical care, and the most cumbersome to access, of those I'm familiar with, yet my sister, who has always lived in the U.S., is satisfied to think no more deeply about it than to repeat a story she heard, thirty years ago, from a Norwegian who was complaining about problems with the health care delivery system he'd encountered, back then, in Norway, when she rejects any suggestion for change, now, in the U.S.
She, like many Americans, resents anything which suggests something could be be better, somewhere else, than it is in the U.S.
I hope some others will take the time to watch, as you've done.
Bottom line ....it's unconstitutional......period
yeah.. and how is that exactly?.. how could it be any more "unconstitutional" than any other government program?
Maybe when I next file taxes I'll just write a note saying that according to various state's (Republican) attorneys generals.. taxes are an "unconstitutional" burden if I don't agree with how they're spent.... therefore I wont pay... :icon_mrgreen: o' and you can forget about that sales tax too :icon_wink:
PS: if we would get the heck out of the middle east we could afford the best care in the world and have money left over to pay the deficit.. wouldn't hurt to stop warehousing people by the millions in prisons and provide treatment programs instead while we're at it... but that makes far too much sense to ever happen...
The most ironic part of this thread is that the only people who support Obamacare are the people who don't live in the US. Amazing that those who don't have to pay for this Obamanation of bill are the only ones who have stated how wonderful it is. I also find it amazing that on the one hand we hear that the US should not try to force its ideas on the rest of the world, but all I'm hearing is how great everyone else's system is compared to the US system. Just because a particular health care system works in one country does not necessarily mean it will work somewhere else. Our system of healthcare could very well be a disaster elsewhere, just as someone else's system could be a disaster here.
Two major points that the Obama system failed to address are that we have a critical shortage of family physicians in the US and the funding of his program will not even occur until he is out of office. The US system functions on a supply and demand basis. All Obama has done is increase the demand on the health care system without increasing the supply of those who will administer it. Our health care system worked out fine until Medicare started. Once the government got involved problems were created. Obamacare will not solve those problems but will only increase them.
I think what I was saying is that there are things which can be learned from the successful experiences of others which might be successfully applied in the U.S.
A significant number of developed countries around the world have better health outcomes than the U.S., suggesting they may be doing something better, as well as cheaper. Japan is an excellent example, where the people enjoy the longest life span in the developed world, and where doctors are well trained, plentiful, and available to the Japanese people who, according the information presented in the video mentioned here, being insured, go to their doctors at will, knowing it will not be very expensive.
Taxes ARE Constitutional. What's Unconstitutional is the Government requiring someone to buy a product or service. This is unprecedented and never been done before. The issue is two fold: #1) Forcing individuals to purchase health insurance stretches and distorts Congress's constitutional power "to regulate Commerce among the several states." #2) States have power to regulate activities within their borders that the Constitution does not grant the federal government (aka, States Rights) See the WP article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/24/AR2010032402927.html
BTW - Check out my post on page 1. The Federal Budget already spends 52% on Social Welfare & Healthcare programs and only 21% goes to National Defense & Military Operations in the Middle East.
At the rate Obama is expanding Government spending, getting out of the Middle East would be a drop in the National Deficit bucket. But now, recognizing this new Healthcare monstrosity needs to be paid for; Obama's Advisors are now considering a new national sales tax (VAT) like they have in Europe. So, you may have heard: "If you think Healthcare is expensive now, just wait until it's FREE"
Well. I disagree with the argument that mandatory health care is unconstitutional... we are already required to pay into a retirement fund (social security) and healthcare (Medicaid/care) even if we don't use it.. the only unusual thing I see is that the option will exist to use private companies instead of only having government run plans...
For the record.. (and no I, like 99% of people, haven't read the legislation) I'm not a big fan of what I've heard as it seem like it will end up being an expansion of Medicare with little to no real affect for years to come... and I don't like the timing since its all being financed on credit (ie: more national debt), but I do think it could turn out to be a step in the right direction once the dust settles and people see that their insurance rates are not any worse (or perhaps even get better, or at least increase more slowly) than they would have been otherwise.
I think that VAST majority of the uproar is purely political Republicans vs Democrats and has very little to do with the substance of the legislation. If they would outlaw political parties maybe the US could get back on track!