Those must be smaller slower planes at least it appears they are slower. Also that flight A1505 crosses the flight path just as the plane veers right, but I assume that they are at different elevations, it also just appears before the plane disappears.
The last report I saw had investigators saying the left engine FELL OFF. Is this typical of the plane? It seems like folks are accepting this as further proof of no foul play!
Investigators have released a partial transcript of the last few moments of the flight. Looks like the plane was getting thrown around by wake turbulence from the plane in front of it. Also it was not the required 5 nautical miles behind the plane ahead of it, it was about 4.1 or 4.2 miles behind it. And pilots failed to slow the plane when asked to. Looks like pilot error at this point from what I see.
I agree with you, RG. Below is an article in today's The News http://www.thenews.com.mx/home/tnhome.asp?cve_home=640 with a transcript of the black box recording. "Lack of experience" listed as the main cause and of course the turbulence.) "Tapes reveal final horror BY NACHA CATTAN The News In a historic move, government investigators released the transcript of cockpit recordings from the Nov. 4 plane crash, giving all the graphic details to the media. "Woah, feel that turbulence," was the first sign of trouble from the pilot. The panic only escalated. "Alvaro, what should we do? Alvaro!" said the pilot, Martín de Jesús Oliva, to his co-pilot, Alvaro Sánchez y Jiménez, who had many more years of flying experience. "Give it to me, give it to me, give it to me, give it to me!" the co-pilot responded, referring to the controls. "All yours Alvaro . Son of a bitch! No, Alvaro!" the pilot screamed. An alarm rang out. "Terrain, terrain," an alert system reported. "Diosito!" the co-pilot shouted, in a last-gasp plea to God. That was the last intelligible word uttered before screams rang out aboard the doomed jet. The conversation occurred during the final minute of the Learjet 45's flight, as it fell out of the sky and dove into Mexico City traffic, killing the nation's second highest-ranking government official and 13 others. A video recording of the collision from a security camera in a nearby building was also shown to the media on Friday. In addition, radar images and control tower conversations helped federal investigators piece together the final gruesome sequence of events. "Should I lift up the nose?" the pilot asked as the plane began descending. "No, no. Leave it for now," Sánchez said, and continued to direct his partner on details that have since led investigators to conclude the pilot did not have necessary experience. A few minutes later, the control tower ordered the Learjet to slow down, as a Boeing 767 began landing in front of it, Communications and Transportation Secretariat officials said Friday. Oliva did not significantly reduce his speed until more than one minute later, during which time his small plane had flown into the Boeing's wake turbulence, secretariat officials said. It also closed its distance from the Boeing to 4.15 nautical miles, flouting regulations that require small aircraft to fly at least five nautical miles behind larger ones, investigators said. The security camera showed the Boeing coming in from the left-hand side of the screen and making its northward arc toward the landing strip. Seconds later, the Learjet streaked across the screen, coming from the opposite side, and at a breakneck speed. The plane was pitched at a steep 46 degree angle, although it corrected itself a bit to 42 degrees as the co-pilot tried to regain control. But it was too late. At 6:46 p.m. the plane disappeared off screen and lit up the sky, first with a blue hue, and then a red explosion. The Learjet had fallen onto a bike path and small side street one block away from Paseo la Reforma. Hitting the ground at 500 kph, it burst into a fireball as it struck an electrical transformer and ignited several cars - killing and maiming drivers. It finally exploded into a building whose granite facade was charred up to its seventh story. All nine passengers were instantly killed, including Interior Secretary Juan Camilo Mouriño and anti-drug chief José Luis Santiago Vasconcelos."
On Thursday a Northwest flight lost one of its 3 engines. The engine fell off at 35,000 feet. The crew brought the plane in on the 2 remaining engines. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE6D6153FF935A35752C0A966958260 In 1991 A China Airlines 747 freighter lost an engine and crashed. As a result of that crash Boeing changed the design of the engine attachments and over the course of 4 months produced enough mounts to successfully replace the mounts on every 747 in the world, which it did. http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19911229-0 In November 2007 a Nationwide flight out of Capetown, SA dropped an engine on takeoff. The plane survived. http://www.southafrica.to/transport...lights/2007/Nationwide-emergency-landing.php5 Then there was the D C-10 that dropped an engine outside of Chicago. That one killed all 271 people on board. That was in 1971, I think. And an AA flight in November 2001 that dropped an engine departing JFK. It crashed, killing all aboard. And for an interesting discussion of how a suddenly stalled engine can tear itself off an aircraft, take a look at http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safety_Issues/FAA_Inaction/severityUnderstated.html. So, while it's rare, it happens. Larger planes can sometimes recover, depending on flight control surface damage, available power to the remaining engine(s) and pilot ability. On small, but very powerful craft like a Lear, assymetrical thrust is almost always a disaster. Engines are hung on planes in a manner that enables rapid engine changes, an event that takes place more often than you think. It's not as though they're an integral part of the plane. They are suspended from the plane on pylons or fit into containing structure from which they can be easily removed.
I don't think they say that the engine fell off but that they were caught in the wake of another plane--something that happened in the states a couple of years ago. Just having an engine fall off wouldn't do that anyway with a Lear.
Engine fell off Mexican plane before crash, official says http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/11/08/mexico.crash/ Wake turbulance could cause sufficient disruption to the structure of a small jet to cause physical damage. And while I've never had the left hand seat in a Lear, back in my younger days I was twin rated and flew a Piper Arrow and I can assure you that suddenly incurred assymetrical thrust on departure or approach is a very dangerous and difficult condition from which to recover. The Lear 35 crash that the Formula 1 driver David Coulthard survived is a classic case of an engine out roll induced in a Lear. http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-f...ident-report-coulthards-lear-35-released.html While a Lear can certainly maintain flight with an engine out, fuel load balance management and approach handling are a whole different ballgame.
Well, I didn't mean to get into an all out war here but the CNN article from a week ago was when they were still speculating, guessing and before they got the results back from the black box. No one is now saying that an engine fell off of the Lear jet now. Nor are they mentioning and "engine rollover" like the other case you cite where one goes out. I own a Lear Jet and was talking to the pilot and even losing an engine--on most models anyway--will not result in a catastrophic outcome.
