Gringation, Good points. I understand the old testament was written by various authors between 1200 BC and 400 BC. The bible as we know it today was compiled some 400 years after Christ's death. Numerous books (Gospels) were omitted, including the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Judas. You might find this NOVA documentary interesting. Here is a link to the the website describing it: NOVA | The Bible's Buried Secrets | PBS Actually, a dry desert is a pretty good place to preserving things like pottery, tools, etc. I agree with you that a lack of evidence is not proof that it did not happen. And the validity of any study is influenced by the motivation behind those doing the work. Are they looking to prove what they already believe? Archeology has verified so many historic events all over the world that when evidence is missing I find it highly suspicious. There are many other events described in the bible that have been documented in other places, by other cultures.
I am trying to stay out of this but had a few comments. The Bible is full of thought provoking statements. "An eye for an eye" and "Turn the other cheek" always comes to mind. Attending a religious service does not, in itself, make one a practiciing Christian, Catholic or whatever. Personally, I have little if any use for the Muslim faith. The term "religious war" in this day and age makes no sense. I have friends however, who run the gamut - you name it and I know one or more, even Buddhists. I know a couple of Iranians who practice the Baha'i faith. Because someone has no faith, or is of a different faith does not make them my enemy, nor does it make me right and them wrong. But when you see, feel and experience the power of God, it is something that lasts forever. Many Christians can tell you the specific day, month and year when they accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. Because Steve and Canuck and others have no belief does not affect my friendship with them and others. If you are ill, I will still pray for you. It does not mean that you will be immediately healed if I or Gringation pray for you. Any religion is really a package deal, for those of us who believe. My friends certainly know that I am not without sin. I do ask for foregiveness and I believe it is granted. Normally, when I pray, I am only saying prayers of thanks, as opposed to help me win the lottery, make my day better, kill my enemy or whatever. I will say that in November I had an experience that cannot be explained in any way other than God speaking to me. He did it in writing, in front of my face. Since this is an athiest driven thread I won't bore you with the details but it really happened and made me realize that my life is in the hands of a higher being. I prefer to believe that God is the higher being in my case. I went to a Catholic church once and did not know I was not supposed to take communion. I did it anyway and don't feel bad at all about it. I thought we had the same God but I guess not. Who knows. My friends are my friends because they are good and nice people and not because of their beliefs or lack of beliefs. There are good and bad in any group, no matter what the category is. Heck, I even know a couple of good Democrats but I am not naming names on this board on that subject.
T.J., I'm wondering how much you know about Islam in order to have little if any use for it. It seems to me that you're lumping one and a half billion people into a relatively small but loud fundamentalist group that believes in jihad. I may be mistaken, but it seems you think all Muslims are jihadists, and if that's the case, then it's truly prejudicial and unfortunate. I'm not a Muslim, but I have taken some time to do some research on Islam. There are some truly beautiful aspects to it, just as there are a few beautiful aspects to Christianity, too, once you wade through all the propaganda and politics. When God talked to you, didn't he tell you to keep an open mind?
I wouldn't classify myself as an atheist, but organized religion I can do without. The hypocrisy of organized religion drives most people away from religion. From a religious perspective, excuses are made to accomodate the hypocrisy. One of the tenants of Christianity is to keep the ten commandments. Christianity breaks one most Sundays, that being "keep my sabbath holy". According to the bible as studied by Christians, the sabbath is sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday, that is accepted by every body that has studied Theology. It is also accepted by those that believe in the order of Genesis, On the first day God created the Sun (that is why it is called Sunday). On the seventh day he rested, that is techncially Saturday, but more accurately sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Now if you ask a Christian why he breaks this commandment he will tell you that in the new testament someone asks Jesus why he does not punish somebody for working on Sunday, Jesus replies that "should he not feed his flock". This then becomes acceptable to celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday. That is what I mean by changing and accomodating to suit people's needs. It is kind of funny every time a Jehovah's Witness comes to my door to recruit me. In their version of Christianity 144 000 people will go to heaven. Currently worldwide there is 100 times that many people that praxtiuce that faith. Why would they want me to become a Jehovah's Witness when it further diminshes their chances of going to the hereafter. Now if you study a bit of their practice, people are starting to increase the number going, I think now it might be at 1.44 million or even 14.4 million, it is all aderivative of the 12 tribes having 12 members. But again, the religion has been changed to suit their needs. In the previous presidency George Bush junior had all of the religious heavyweights praying to bring their boys home. Although the sentiment is great, and I hope they all come home, in reality what they are praying for is help to kill the enemy without being killed, would a true God allow that to happen. The thougts of going to heaven. As a boy in Sunday School you are taught how you will be able to look down on from heaven and be happy that you lived a good and proper life and made it to the streets of gold. There will never be a sad thought for the rest of eternity. I guess when you are looking down from heaven and seeing your loved ones suffering, another death in the family, normal sadness, strife, etc, you won't feel pity, pain or any of the other normal emotions because you won't be sad? How does that correspond to a loving god. There is just way too many inconsistancies and hypocrisy's to accept organized religion. I haven't even touched on Catholicsm, unequal rights for women, a pope elected by his fellow man that someone how is God on earth. The unnatural acts that a priest is expected to conform to (celibacy), and why this leads to so much abuse. I have read a few books of Herbert W Armstrong, "Mystery of the Ages", and "Britian and the US in prophesy", and although you might not agree with many of these books and their teachings, they certainly make you question many things. Just my thoughts.
My goodness, what an interesting discussion. Ironic that it is much more civil than our political discussions later in the forum. Most of what is in the Bible has some historic perspective. The great flood was based on the fact that most of the civilized world was located between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers and those rivers flooded often. Also a flood in the agricultural sense is a form of rebirth with the soil being replaced. Hence we have the Biblical analogy. One of the great distortions of religion is the "Creation" as it is stated by most religions. I think the best perspective is that the Biblical description of the origin of man is based on the science of 5,000 years ago and taken in that context makes a little bit more sense. There is no question in the minds of most that there is such a thing as evolution, yet many cling to seven days to put everything together as they were taught in their youth. One of the many problems I see with Biblical analysis is that there are a great many contradictions and even distortions in the Bible. Add to that a few errors in translation and you have some real unique interpretations. Was Mary a virgin or did some scholar mis-translate the term young woman into virgin? Historically it appears that Christ was actually born in February or March, but we celebrate Christmas in December. Was that the reality or was it marketing to give the pagans their normal holiday near the winter solstice? There are a lot of questions in any study of any religion. Most miss one basic point....It isn't so much where or when or even how often one attends some sort of religious service, but rather what type of life does one lead. If that is done in conjunction with one's god, that's wonderful. If it is done without the context of any specific religion, then there should be no negative stigma to it.
I was thinking today that an athiest who says "I don't believe in God" actually is acknowledging that there is a God, simply by saying His name. While I may not agree with the teachings of Islam, I surely acknowledge its existence.
Sorry if my last post come across as rude I didn't mean it to, I often only get time for Cancun Care when I come home after a few drinks at work. My logic was I don't believe in unicorns, I do not believe in farther christmas dropping of so many billions if not trillion gifts in one night. I also do not believe in all these "dates the world is going to end" reports I hear from many other people once every few years. These are just general cases of subjects I do not belive in. I'm pretty sure in my mind that I'm not "acknowledging that there is a "farther Christmas, unicorn or the world is going to end on a certain date ect. What I am saying is I simpley do not believe in the storeys I have seen, read or heard in any of the above subjects. Great subject and its very interesting to hear different users views.
