OK I just had to respond to this one...The US did not join WW1 (fought from 1914-1918) until 1917 and the US did not officially join WW2 (fought from 1939-1945) until Pearl Harbour in Dec of 1941 (guess the German occupation of Europe was OK before then), oh sure the US supported Britain and Canada and the other allies in the fight against the Germans, but not in an official capacity. Also, may people would say that the US administration is currently decided by a man who believes that his God stands before all other Gods. That is why Religion and state needs to be separate. Having said that, now then... Ok, this has turned into a real good debate, not great, but pretty good. It has not evolved into name calling, Drewbert has joined in against Fletch without commenting on Fletch's scholastic achievements (still wish he would change the insulting tag line...but one battle at a time). Anyway...It started out as a tirade against Bush, then evolved into a debate about why we are in Iraq and then morphed back into a discussion of Bush and all things regarding Bush. Is Bush an Idiot...Probably, this question is more rhetorical than an actual inquiry. Why is Bush the president? Bush is the president because he is the answer to the Republicans. Politics is no longer about who is the better man. Politics has become a question of , who shall lead my party which will garner the most votes to topple the opposition. So Bush is not a statesman, rather he is a means to an end. How do we get the Democrats out?, we elect a populist person. Bush made a statement shortly after 9/11 when he went against what his scriptwriters gave him. Doing a speech in Tennessee he attempted to molify his crowd and the US and at the same time throw a scare into the hearts of terrorists worldwide. George said" Fool me once, I am the fool, Fool me twice...We won't get fooled again" His speechwriters and his handling team and everyone else associated with poor old Georgie must have cringed and vowed that he would never again stray from what was given to him. To basterdize that old "Who" song showed him to be a complete fool. But like I said, this invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with the Republicans, or George Bush or anything else. If the Democrats were in power, at some point-perhaps later rather than sooner- we would be in Iraq. As I said in an earlier post, we are not in Iraq out of Altruism, we don't give a shit about the living conditions of the Iraqi populace, if we did, we would be in China, North Korea, Iran, hell even Cuba. This is all about the OIL. Black Gold> We can apologize for Bush, we can scream about Bush we can cry, derail, feud, kick, scream, whatever the hell you want. It is not about Altruism or any other Myopic viewpoint of our cherished good christianity, It is all about the OIL, and our current lifestyle which is totally dependant on OIL. It does not matter whether you hail from the US, Canada, Britian, Australia, (or even New Zealand), or Mexico for that matter. In order to maintain our current lifestyle, we need an unlimited, unthreatened supply of Oil. This is not about Bush, Or Kerry, or Democrats, or Republicans, or who is right or who is wrong...Yes Bush is an idiot, but...he is the head of the US which is the policeman of the world and right or wrong we have to support him. He does not decide his policy's. the people decide the policy's, regardless of your party affiliation we would be in Iraq today. Osama did not create 9/11 as a result of Bush, If Al Gore would have been declared the winner of that election, 9/11 still would have occurred. Your responsibility as Bush's or Kerry's or Hillary Clinton's general populace is to convince the powers that be that Stem cell research is a necessity, Homosexual unions will occur, allow it to happen or get out of the way, Canada is a first world country, quit screwing with softwood lumber and realize that prescription drugs emanating from Canada meet the same vigorous testing protocols as those from the States. Get your head out of your Ass and look around. And we are in Iraq because of the oil. Let me step off the soap box now...lol
It's all over now! I love how those who have never walked the walk, seem to think they can talk the talk. Still not sure why Drew even contributes to these threads. Simply put, We in the U.S. live in a world that pretty much is untouched by those who loathe us in other parts of the world. Those who live in other sections of the world can only try to sympathize how we feel because if everybody bowed down to terrorism, they would live in the same world as the Congo and those nations in Africa who are trying to gain control of their countries. Great Britain unfortunately had the opportunity to have a small taste of what he have been dealt. But because we are taking the forefront on terror, we are taking the hit. Say what you will, but I have been there personally . Just because you hail from a small South Pacific nation doesn't give you credibility or just because you are pro-Democrat doesn't give give you the answer. Don't get me wrong, I also have so pro-Democrat ideologies, but when it comes to national defense and the military, I have walked the walk here in the states and abroad. No matter what you think, there will be those who hate us and will do whatever they can to make us pay. Be it a Democratic President or otherwise. I have served under both and believe me, there are nations out there who hated us either way. The only difference is that Clinton drew down the military and only weakened the military. You can hate Bush all you want but we have been wearing and will continue wearing a huge target on our chest. And it will be just a matter of time until others cry that we here in the U.S. didn't do enough to curtail what is happening. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. We just happen to have the world's most sophisticated surveillance methods and use them and there are those who think that it's a violation of peoples' personal privacy. But let them be the ones' who have lost a loved one. Then it's a travesty. Perhaps when Indonesian extremists decide to waste New Zealand off of the map, which is not so far fetched since they have already hit Fiji, then perhaps Drew will understand where we come from.... until then, those who speak about what they think... even those expats who have lived abroad, can only speculate. Maybe Chavez will influence some other folks and they can live under a Socialist state. Then we will see where people stand.
As has been addressed, this would only hurt Bush's bottom line. Not sure why you folks think this. The Artic is perhaps just as oil-rich as well as the Gulf of Mexico (which they have to happen to have recently found a huge oil resevoir within). . But you had better look out... we are certain to put an ass-whoopin on you folks next. :lol: Just because folks are pacifists doesn't mean that they are terrorist-immune. Just ask Germany and Spain. Before the fall of the Iron Curtain there was the Beider-Manhoff Gang (Red Army Faction) in Germany and there are still terrorist organizations in Spain. Oh and if you think that the train bombing was because of Spain's support for the U.S.' operation in Iraq You are totally wrong! There has been numerous bombings in Spain since. Terrorist organizations are in abundance in Eastern Europe, Africa, Eastern Asia, the Middle East, the Far East, and even South America. And as I recall, there was a huge bust in your backyard (Toronto) for terrorists who were planning an operation. But I guess that was just a figment of your government's imagination.
>Perhaps when Indonesian extremists decide to waste New Zealand off of the map, Perhaps, if you took your head out of your arse for a short time, you would realise that New Zealand has provided troops to EVERY major war that the US has dragged western civiliisation into. Korea, Vietnam, Gulf...
Huh? Believe me, I hate to take Drew's side, especially after a debate a couple of months ago when he implied without reading my posts that I didn't know what I was talking about. Great Britian has dealt with terrorism, much longer than the US, the IRA has blown to smithereens the likes of Lord Mountbatten well before the US described the difference between a dirty bomb and a nuclear bomb. However the US has failed to even consider why it is dis-loved. I know, not a word, but I just made it one. The US needs to appreciate other cultures and their differences without trying to force their policies down others throats. The middle east existed as a bunch of Nomads (no disrespect meant) for centuries, until Oil was discovered. Then the US took the Oil, made a few figureheads wealthy (re: the Saudi Princes), developed a friendship that was two-fold and exploited the black gold. New Zealand is not a small backwoods nation in the South Pacific, rather it is considered part of the first world. It has a democratically elected government and has a GNP above $15 000.00 US. Granted it did apply for IMF relief in the last 20 years, but it appears to now have it's house in order. Until the US realizes that it is not the centre of the universe, until it realizes that it exists within co-operation of others and not above others, until it realizes that there is a multitude of differences out there that are happy with their lot in life and don't need to be a small cousin of the US. Until the US realizes that as much as they solve, they also contribute to, they will continue to be an enemy of those abroad. It may be a resentment of exploitation, it may be that others are Jealous, it could be a reactionary response to US imperialism or it could simply be all of the above wrapped up into Hate, until the US realizes others are different and want to remain different, things will not change.
So the 60-100 Iraqi's that die each day just aren't worth adding to the equation? Only the American deaths matter huh? Lovely.
I hate to, but I have to reply If it is truly altruism for the reason that we are in Iraq, then why are we not in Iran, North Korea, Cuba or China. If it is truly not for the Oil, but rather for Human rights why are we not in the other places. How about Saudi Arabia, c'mon. I agree totally that we need to be in Iraq, I just think that we need to be here to maintain a steady supply of Oil. Yes the Arctic has as much Oil as the middle east, it is just not economically feasible to tap it at less than $75.00 a barrel, the same with the oil sands in Alberta (which is not part of the arctic). How was more oil discovered in the Caribbean, drill deeper than we have ever drilled before. Also, c'mon again, if we were not your friendliest nation and your largest trading partner, if we took true offense to your mud-slinging and insults, if we did not allow you access to our oil, you would find away to exploit us and get the oil anyway. We are a nation 1/10th the size of you. You harbour terrorists that plan on attacking us (Yes terrorists from the US of middle eastern descent were planning on blowing up union station in Toronto), this is a directive from Osama Bin Laden, hurt anyone that supports the US, you are wrong, the Spain bombings were a direct consequence of Spains support of the US. So go ahead, laugh at my comments, belittle all that we have to say, but realize that that is the perception the rest of the world has of the US. Arrogance in the form of a pat on the head which inevitably leads to consternation and irratibilty.
Excellent post. Let's also not forget that New Zealand was the victim of a terrorist attack by French secret service members not that long ago. 52 minute video documentary about it... http://stage6.divx.com/Greenpeace_Features/show_video/1030878 Text summary... http://archive.greenpeace.org/comms/rw/pkbomb.html
