I agree with you that there were most likely terrorist activity in Iraq prior to our invasion and there still is. My comment to that though is that there are training camps all over the middle east and other areas. Not that it was a bad thing to get rid of the training camps in Iraq, but why did we not finish the job in Afghanistan where the Al Queada power base is/was? Why is Bin Laden still free? Who was more dangerous to our national security, Saddam or Bin Laden? Getting rid of terrorists wherever they are is a good thing, but the 9/11 plot was not formulated in Iraq. The Madrid train bombing was not done from Iraq. The London attacks were not done from Iraq. I understand that it is not an overnight fix. All I am saying is that it is not ours to fix.
Re: EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS Interesting but a little far fetched...... it's actually very difficult to make a nuke detenator ... the best they could hope for would be a dirty bomb that uses convential explosives to spread the radiation over a few city blocks.... As much as I believe in being prepared I honestly think that this guy (the reporter) is being an alarmist. Fox news is hardly considered a credible resource.
lambert- well said, but you are missing an important point. someone that wants to kill us is called a terrorist- it doesn't matter where they are from. you mention Madrid- you know what happened less than 1 month after the train bombings? Spain pulled their troops and support out of Iraq- which was the goal of Al-Qaeda, to get them to leave. they tried it in London also. i do agree with you that we should have concentrated more effort to get Bin Laden- but don't forget- there is a reason the Soviets could not defeat these people- they are loyal, fierce fighters, and the landscape is one of the most inhospitable on the planet.
I agree that we don't want to see another 9/11 in your country, or in my country, (don't forget, Bin Laden stated that those that supported the US would be next, Spain and the UK have been hit, Canada foiled an attempt last summer, but we are just as likely to be hit) so No, I don't want it to happen again. I am not saying that we should pull out 0f Iraq, I am saying that we should be honest with our intentions and reasons for being there. We should quit future exploitation of those in the Third World, we should keep our religion to ourselves and quit trying to jam it down everyone's throat. Personally I believe in God, I do not however, believe in organized religion as we know it in North America, I think it is all run by overzealous hypocrites who get paid by the number of recruits they have. Overzealous religious hypocrites that try to persuade people that their religion is the correct religion and everyone else's religion is wrong, gee are we talking about North America or the Middle East, seems to me that one of our biggest differences is actually one of our biggest similarities. My naive solution is to start at step one, let's be honest with everyone, let us be honest why we are over there. If we need to be there in order to maintain our opulent lifestyle then let's help them maintain and expand and improve their lifestyle, but the way they want to, not the way we insist or expect them to. Greta debates...Thanks, love everyones opinion.
b&b- i don't want to see them attack canada either!!! i love molson beer, and will take it personally if they go after the breweries!!! (hey, i had to lighten up the topic, no? :lol: ). i have to go do laundry- would love to stay and debate everyone- hope everyone has a great weekend!!!
Why is Bin Laden still free?.... If searching Iraq for WMDs is difficult then searching for a few people is nearly impossible. If Bin Laden is still in Afghanistan then he is bouncing surrounded by the Pashtun and passing back and forth between the Pakestan and Afghan border. Why didn't we finish the job in Afghanistan? Because like Iraq it's not a quick fix.... it's also going to take a generation to stablize Afghanistan. This isn't a Mc Donalds happy meal here.... it's a country .. with a long history of war with outsiders.... Even the Taliban aren't all Afghan... at least half of them are from other countries there to help impose their extreme version of Islam onto people that can't read or write. And lastly for this post...... it actually is Our/Yours to fix........ the CIA created Bin Laden and Clinton even invited Taliban leaders to the US. Stablizing Afghanistan really has to do with stablizing the world. If the terrorist did have their hands on Nukes (Pakistan has them) then they would have used them already
Not only did we/you create Bin Laden, The US supported and funded Iraq during the Iraq/Iran war in the 80's. It was felt that Hussein was the lesser of two evils.
I can't help myself. I work in politics and have to add a few comments. First, I am an unabashed liberal Democrat. By liberal, I mean more in a classical sense, not the way the word has been demonized by the right. I'm not a zealot on the social issues like gay marriage, abortion, etc. I firmly believe that the government shouldn't legislate morality. If parents and families do their jobs, then those issues will take care of themselves. I have a real problem with George Bush and parts of the Republican Party because they claim that if you have the audacity to question or criticize the President, then you are somehow un-American or unpatriotic. I firmly believe that the most patriotic action that a person can take is to question our leaders. For the President to claim that I'm unpatriotic because I don't blindly follow him goes against everything ideal that our nation was built on. I also cannot stomach an administration that uses fear to achieve its objectives. I will never stand idly by while my freedoms are curbed for the sake of so-called "security." That, my friends, is a dangerous path on which to tread. I also have a problem with a war that was instigated on false premises. Sadaam posed to imminent threat to the security of the United States. If WMD was in fact the reason that we went there, then North Korea and Iran should have come first. They posed a much more imminent threat to the security of our nation than Sadaam did and they still do. What the neo-cons fail to understand is that you cannot just "slap" democracy on a country. It just isn't possible. A short look at history will underscore this point. A society must evolve to the point at which it can undertake the responsibilities of democracy before it can achieve it. Iraq is still generations away from being able to accept any notion of what we see as democracy, partly because it is governed by those with deeply held religious views that run counter to what we see as freedom. I'm always in favor of helping any nation achieve the freedoms that we hold dear, but only if they seek our assistance. I do not believe that it should be the policy of the United States to unilaterally make decisions about the fate and future of any nation. While Sadaam was a brutal dictator, he certainly wasn't the worst that is in the world today. There are much greater crimes against humanity occurring right now that we as a nation are simply ignoring. Our invasion of Iraq did nothing to make this nation more secure. It has strained our military to the brink and cost this nation billions upon billions of dollars every day. This war has never been justified and I firmly believe that history will judge it as a blunder on our part.
I suppose another blunder you will cite is the US intervention when Iraq invaded Kuwait- should we have let Saddam take over that country? What do you think he would have done after that? Saying he was not a threat to the US is just ignoring the problem. B&B- we did not "create" Bin Laden- please read Peter Bergen's book "The Usama Bin Laden I know"- and you will learn exactly why this statement is not entirely true. No one is questioning your patriotism, cancunbound- but to be critical of this administration, without offering an alternative solution- is wrong. Please remember that Bill Clinton was offered Bin Laden more than 7 separate times- with very solid intelligence as to his whereabouts- and he chose to do nothing- nothing. Saying Iraq did nothing to make this country more secure also shows your gross ignorance of the subject matter. I'll cite as just one example this small fact: Gaddafi, the Libyan leader with whom the US has struggled with for decades, was so taken aback by the US capture of Saddam in 2003 that he turned colors- he is now working with the US, has vowed to get rid of WMD's (where the ones from Iraq probably went, by the way)- and not harbor terrorists. That's not good for the world???
Kuwait was diagonal-drilling into Iraq and stealing their oil. Saddam told the USA that he was going to take action, and they said "go for it". And why didn't anyone tell me about this thread? Hmmmmm?????
