Oh and one more thing! If someone uses the language properly, and they sound intelligent, they usually are intelligent (though not always). If someone mis-speaks all the time, and can't spell, and can't pronounce simple words it leaves you wondering if they mean, or even understand, all of what they say. And that is very scary in a head of state. Bush is supposed to be an educated man. I do not want someone leading my nation, and my military who is not EXTREMELY well educated. But Bush does not speak like a well educated man, he says "misunderestimated." And that destroyed any faith I might ever have had in him. And similarly it makes the U.S. look bad in the eyes of other nations. What does it say about the US that we "elect" someone who can't give a speech without looking like a red-neck hick? I think it says that my fellow Americans are largely red-neck hicks who don't recognize the value of a proper education!
What they need is something else, something which accounts for the huge cultural differences among the people of that nation, something which may not exist under one flag! what's wrong with our system. I remember American history saying we were the worlds melting pot or have they changed that. As for the Statements about education, I for one would choose common sense over education any day. It does not matter what or how he conveys the message, someone is going to get upset over it. That has got to be a nerve wrecking under the current situation.
Very well said. Our "fearless" leader does not even really have a clear idea on how to fix his mess that he at least somewhat admits was his fault. As far as the argument validating the war by saying that the world is better off with Saddam......... thats kind of a cop out. There are so many nations that are ruled by people more horrible than Saddam was. What about the people in Sudan? What about the people starving to death in S. Korea? What about the people in the war torn Congo? Yes, Saddam was a horrible person, but to think that freeing the people of Iraq from his grip was the reason is ridiculous. If our mission is to free people from oppression, we have an awful lot more work to do. I don't know how much clearer it has to be for people to realize that the US f##ked up because of faulty intelligence and a leader who already had a grudge against Saddam. I say we pull out of there immediately. The country of Iraq will NEVER be a stable democracy. Yes, there will be turmoil and bad blood, but how many more of our men and women have to die over there until we realize its hopeless. Even if we do "win" the war, how long will peace and stability last over there? How long before it reverts right back to how it was with Saddam in power?
You are of course entitled to your opinion but I feel that I have to rebutt a couple things that you mentioned here. Bush made the decision to go into Iraq but how (militarily) it is handled has nothing to do with Bush. Even though everyone likes to blame him. Bush may have decided to go in. But it's the military that made the plan on HOW. Anyway... you said that they need to stop killing and start listening. That's a great idea but we all know that it will never happen so that's not really a solution. The people that are planting IEDs and creating suicide bombers would kill you as soon as they would blink. They don't care if you want to talk or fight. We're not dealing with logical people.. we're dealing with fanatics. You can't negotiate with them. You also said that you believe that Iraq needs to fall apart and then build itself up again. If the USA and Briton pulled out tomorrow a new Saddam would find his way into the government within the month. Why? Because the current government isn't strong enough to hold its own right now and we're talking about a country that has been ruled by extream violence for years. It's natural that people fall back on what they know .... and they know violence. If the USA and Briton pulled out there would be a religous killings on a scale that would make Rowanda look like a multiple murder. I'll ask you this... anyone that wants troops out ... what about the innocence?... it's not all men with guns and bombs... what about the innocent adults and children. If the US pulls out I garontee that you will be creating the next wave of terrorists who will be pissed because they were abandon. Lambert has everything failed before it's even over. That's not an idea. That's just giving up. It won't work so lets not try. Guess what.... Someone else said it.... you're already committed... see it through.
Isn't that kind of an extreme statement? I for one don't believe it. I think there's an internal logic to what those people are doing. And I think that we, as outsiders, just don't know what it is. And I think we should make an effort to understand what their thinking and their logic is. I think that taking the stance that there's no possible way to deal with these people but to kill them before they kill you is just plain wrong. In fact I think it's uncivilized. It sounds like a perfect recipe for making new terrorists to me. If everyone on all sides of this conflict thinks that way where will it end? It won't, it will only end when everyone is dead and there's no one left to kill. Someone needs to stop and think here. Someone needs to recognize that there is no right side and wrong side to this conflict. The strife between the various groups in Iraq goes back a long, long time. And much of it is simply not our business. Now I don't know what would happen if we pull out. But how many people are dead because we're there now? How many would be dead if we'd pulled out last year? We can never know this. But I believe that our presence in Iraq is making things worse and not better there! I very much believe that. I have heard people, whose opinions I respect, say that if we quadrupled our troops there then they might stand a chance of bringing stability. I can believe that this may be true. But when we fill Iraq with our military in order to stabilize it aren't we then occupying a foreign country? Isn't that wrong? And for what? The war is already driving the US into the worst debt in its history. So we should hang around in Iraq, being hated there, while our own country suffers the loss of troops and goes broke? I don't buy this, it doesn't make sense to me.
sorry, I didnt mean to come off as a jerk, I apologize. Its just that for all the flack that Bush receives, I have yet to see a better option from the opposing side. I will give credit where credit is due if someone brings up a good point, but the majority of what I'm seeing is just Bush Bashing. Its like I said before, theres always going to be people who hate our president, and when a new one comes, there will be people who hate him. Its just how the world works. Again, sorry if I came off as an ass, those were not my intentions.
I will have to agree with 4bidden here. What will happen if we pull out now is the most violent person in Iraq at the moment will end up in power and we will be worse off than we are now. As far as being an extreme statement - not in the least!!! The people in the region that are causing all the problems are the extremists that do not care who they kill. As I said before, terrorists were traveling there just to fight our troops. Would you rather they came here? While it is true we have lost many great Americans in this war, how many of their own “countrymen” have they killed in the process? Simple fact, we are not going anywhere any time soon. One thing I do know as a red neck hick (haha), if you want someone to leave you alone - stop fighting back. The only way this is ever going to end soon will be for the majority of the people of Iraq to grow a set of balls and stand up for themselves. If that happens, we will no longer be needed. And just so everybody understands where I stand on this - I am a red neck southern boy and I have the tractor in the yard to prove it, but even though I disagree with some of the statements on this thread I will provide the good out fashion butt cutting to anybody that tries to stop you from expressing your opinion in a “non-violent” manner (verbal is fine – physical or threatening is not). That is what makes this country great now and forever. The problem is there are the extremist of the world that don't agree and must be deal with. I am willing to die for what I believe in but I would never “knowingly” kill innocent people as they do for the “cause”. As I see it, we have been attacked on several different occasions, not just 9/11 and if we had started fighting back sooner it would never have gotten to this point. Don’t get me wrong, I will turn the other check once or twice but after that, get ready for an all out war. That’s just the way I was raised by my father along with my training by a Korean native in Tae Kwon do. I say that to prove a point, more civilized cultures (not just US mentality) will tolerate some limited extreme behavior before they take action. The problem is, the cultures we are dealing with a have done nothing about the extremists so me are left to deal with them. As far as the statement about being in Iraq making things worse. think I heard this somewhere - It's always darkest right before the dawn.
Are you saying that terrorists are going TO IRAQ to fight with our troops? If I were a terrorist I would go kill Americans where it would be a lot easier than in Iraq. In Iraq most of the Americans are armed and have military training. I don't think what you are saying makes any sense at all. The people of Iraq were already traumatized by Saddam's fearmongering and his ironfistedness before we got there. And they didn't overthrow Saddam, or couldn't overthrow him. So now you want them to stand up and be strong? I don't think they are in a position to do that. They were victims before this war even started!
I cant believe that statement doesnt have everyone frothing at the mouth yet. I stand behind you 100% on thinking that way also. There are two sides to every story and there is not always a right and a wrong side. How would "WE" be worse off? I think that will happen as soon as we leave no matter when we leave. Getting our troops back home and using all that war money for something good is not worse off in my mind.
So River, you think that all the people planting the bombs in Iraq are from Iraq? This is what scares me. The loudest voices that want us out of Iraq don't even know what is going on there. No wonder you don't understand why we are there... Yes, terrorists are going to Iraq to kill Americans. Even ABC, CBS and MBC have done stories about the terrorist from Jordan, Syria, Egypt and other Middle East countries crossing the boarder to fight the US. If the Americans can be forced to pull out by public opinion before they are done then the terrorists have kept the Iraqis from have a democracy and then can still be ruled by the religious clerics. Think Pat Buchannan running the US. Even you can be for that. You know everybody keeps saying Iraq is another Vietnam. Maybe they are right. The best way to beat American armed forces is to control the press in the US and beat them with public opinion back home, just like the VC did then. Remember we were fighting in Nam for the oil there too, or so the people that wanted us out said. And they say the Bush supporters are Ditto Heads! Jamie
