Race & Ethnicity Question

I'm pondering something and I wonder if others here might give me their opinions on this.

I have a daughter, as many of you know. Her dad, my ex, is of white Anglo-Saxon Protestant (WASP) descent. His ancestors were from Norway, Sweden, England and Germany as far as I know. One of his ancestors came on the Mayflower. He's as American as they come.

My ancestors were from England, Ireland, Germany and France. And I had an ancestor on the Mayflower too (the same ancestor as my ex, so we are related). I'm as white and American as you can get.

So my daughter is white and checks white on all forms asking her for her race. Several times already in life she has experienced reverse discrimination when we've tried to get her into good schools. The schools have made it clear that they want kids of color, not one more white kid. She's gotten in anyway, she's a good student and we pay full tuition. But still it bothers me that because she has to check that white box on a form that she will struggle to get into an elite school.

Now my present husband is Mexican. His ancestors were, we think, Aztecs or some other indigenous Mexicans (indians) on one side. And on the other side his ancestors were from Spain, so they were white with probably some Arab blood in there (my brothers-in-law all look like Iraqi terrorists...that's a joke).

So my husband is, from one way of looking at it, at least half-white. He's also Latino, although I've never once heard him refer to himself that way. And he's Hispanic, but being Hispanic isn't a racial distinction, it's about ethnicity which makes it about cultural heritage.

So are native Americans white? They aren't black. But they don't look all that white. My husband doesn't think of himself as white, and he's quite a bit darker than I am.

If we have a child would that child be white? Would that child HAVE to fill out forms and check the white box? Would that child be Hispanic? Would that child be legally able to fill out forms anyway it wants? Would it legally HAVE to check the Hispanic box or the Latino box on a form?

I imagine that if we have a child that it would have many fewer problems than my daughter does getting into elitist schools simply because those schools all want kids of color, kids who aren't WASPs. Probably just having an Hispanic last name would help this child academically.

But I'm interested in what this child would LEGALLY have to check on those boxes about race and ethnicity. Does anyone here know what the laws in the US would say about this?

I had a friend in college who was white, but who filled out all his applications for financial aid saying he was black. He was never questioned and got the aid he needed. (He had a Ph.D by the time he was 23 and is now a famous mathematician.) He seemed to think that either there was little chance of getting caught lying about race (probably true for financial aid apps), or that the legal definition of race was sufficiently malleable to allow him to push it around, so to speak.

What do you all think?

 

All I could add is that one of the most accepted theories of migration into North and in turn South America was over a land bridge connecting Russia and Alaska, so in a very distant way your child could be considered part Asian since those people likely migrated up the Asian coast (China etc) and then through North America to Mexico.

then if you go back further and further we would all be African.

It's not lying it's being creative!

 

RG, I'm not a lawyer obviously, but these are my experiences/first-hand knowledge. Also, I sent your general questions to a civil rights attorney friend of mine in Kansas. When he gets back to me, I'll update accordingly.

About your daughter: that sucks. But it's going to get worse for her. When she goes to apply for scholarships for college, she'll find herself automatically disqualified for ~75% of them. From my personal experience, 3 in 4 scholarship funds have race requirements set by the founders of the fund, and just about every race is covered, some even generically as 'minority'. The exception is being white. This is a major double standard and a huge source of contention among civil rights attorneys.

From my experience, filling out a race/ethnicity questionnaire for an application of any kind in the US is optional and can not legally be mandated. If you are a minority, however, it often works in your favor. This is a Catch-22 as well for schools, because there are numerous incentives/subsidies for grants/funding/whatever to have a certain minimum ratio of minorities to whites. Thus, it wouldn't surprise me if some schools try to pressure for the information or say that such forms are mandatory.

Being Native American is a huge boon in the US for college. You can receive full tuition and a living stipend. This is strictly regulated though; you have to have tribal documents (going back X generations). Aztec isn't a federally recognized tribe in the US, btw.

According to my ex-HR director, if either parent is a minority, you can claim the minority status of that parent. Most forms specify white non-Hispanic these days versus just white, btw. She said often that race forms have a 2 or more races status (mixed), but a mixed race person could suitably claim the race of either parent. Further, she said misleading a company/school on the race form doesn't have any legal ramification that she is aware of, although if caught it can mean instant application rejection or worse, expulsion. I think my attorney friend can probably clear this up better soon.

When Laura and I have kids, I have 0 reservations about having them mark Hispanic/Latino whatever. In terms of school/scholarship applications, being a minority in the US is very advantageous.

 

Dont mean to slide away completely from the subject, but you have to fill out "color"/race in USA??? :shock:

What does that have anything to with... anything?

I have never heard of that, wow :?

 

I don't think you are legally obligated too, but yes, virtually all applications have this little check box in the US. I'm checking now to see if this can be legally mandated or wholly optional.

The general idea is to prevent racism against minorities in schools, banks, jobs, you name it. The net effect in the modern day, however, is that whites are often excluded from being eligible for a myriad things. And to be fair, whites still make more than any race in the US except Asians and have the highest education rates.

 

coby: Wow, I had no idea that was even allowed :?

Woudnt that just put more focus on ones ethnicity, considering you label yourself the second you check one/several(is it ok to check several?) box/boxes?

Just sounds very strange to me, but then again, a LOT of things about US makes me drop my jaw and scratch my head :wink:

Sorry, Im not gonna hijack the thread - was just very surprised and curious

 

For over ten years I was Director of Admissions & Recruitment for one of the professional schools within the University of Minnesota.

From my experience, Coby has it right. The designation on the forms, as Coby said, is "White non-Hispanic", with another for "Hispanic". (The Univeristy of Minnesota also offered "Chicano" as an option, which has political undertones, but was another option for Mexican-American students.) If you had another child now, your child would be able to check "Hispanic" or "Chicano" because of his/her father's race/cultural background. Black students with ancestry from Cuba, Dominican Republic, etc usually checked Hispanic, but also sometimes African American.

So all-in-all it's really left up to the student to decide which box to check, which is supposedly (emphasis on supposedly) used only for record-keeping purposes, as many federal grants require a certain percentage of minority students. (The pressure to meet these guidelines was intense.)

However, many scholarships/fellowships from private donors or foundations are earmarked for a minority student or specific minority group. In my opinion, Native-American was probably the easiest to claim as racial background if someone were to lie about it for admission purposes. For that reason, several of the scholarships earmarked for Native American students required tribal documentation showing a specific percentage of Native American heritage.

RiverGirl, feel free to call me for any advice for your daughter. I lived and breathed these issues/questions for many years of my pre-Mexico life.

 

This is one of my favorite conversations ever. For me, I don't sweat it...I'm white. Just white. (Despite getting called the n*** word daily...but that's a whole other ball of wax having to do with the population I work with). But now I'm thinking of my husband...his nationality is Mexican, obviously, but he's more indigenous Yucatec Maya than mestizo. So is he technically Hispanic? Or Native American? I mean, I suppose this is a purely philosophical point considering if he were to apply for a job and check off Native American yet when asked for his documentation regarding his right to work in the US and he provided a green card rather than a US birth certificate, he'd prob be questioned.

My job is also federally and state funded and I am constantly collected layer after layer of data regarding the race/ethnicity/whatever of my clients. And no two reporting forms have uniform categories, even within the same stream of funding. This, compounded by the fact that the largest percentage of my clients are first generation Cape Verdeans, many of whom balk at checking off the Black/African American category (because nowhere is there an "of African descent" category which I've seen elsewhere), though black is the closest thing to describe them. And some identify as black (both those here with Green Cards and those whose parents are PR but the youth were born here).

And to make matters even more fun, the councilman for our neighborhood (Cape Verdean...all about the CV pride) has been yapping about the fact that we don't serve Cape Verdeans and is somehow insinuating we are racist (staff is predominantly white). Yet he's never actually come around to check on this...despite one quick visit during which he met me and I believe decided that we couldn't possibly work with Cape Verdeans. So ow we get to meet with the Mayor, Police Department, and this dude to not only school them on what we do but also explain that being a "Haven for Hoodlums" is a GOOD thing...especially because it took us almost a year to get the "hoodlums" to trust us enough to come to us for resources.

A bit of a tangent, I know (or a big one)...but just another perspective on this whole race issue and also my feelings on having experienced reverse racism. And it's weird to get the "You're not like most white people" because, well, I am...and unfortunately most of the people I work with haven't had very many or very good interactions with white people.