This is about as good an example of the disconnect as I could offer: it's painful to contemplate (and the fine was painful, I'm sure), but it's the duty of the applicant to get it right, and as far as the law usually goes, people are not free to disregard the law and fail to meet its requirements, even if an employee of INM told you to do so. I would never expect to be able to rely, unequivocally, on anything someone else told me, in this context: I would attempt to verify everything beforehand, and afterward, if necessary, as in the situation you mentioned. After checking the rule, and finding that, sure enough, I must report a change of address, I'd go back in and try it again- without ever mentioning that I'd already tried to do so (since getting it done would be my goal: I could complain later, if I chose to). Sounds unfair, and in a way it is, but so it goes with legal matters. I could recount the times that someone working at the INM desk told me something erroneous, but I won't. When they do I just disregard it; or, if it seems appropriate, try to work them around to a different (and correct) point of view; or, if all else fails, come back another time. I would do the same in the U.S., when dealing with poorly trained personnel. I could tell you at least two recent examples of encountering U.S. Government employees who didn't know the rules that applied to their work: I just ignored what they told me, recognizing it for what it was. That's the beauty of the internet, the INM rules and laws are in the website for all to see. That's how T.J. learned that he'd be able to keep his foreign registered automobile after changing from FM3 to FM2 Rentista, recently.
V: If you re-read my above post, I mentioned that I did check the website, but the requirements posted there were quite different from the ones I actually ended up having to turn in. (This was 5 years ago, I believe the website is much more reliable now.) I remember checking several other non-official websites as well. I agree with you 100% that it's necessary to check as many sources as possible to find out the requirements, and that's what I do now after several years and bad experiences. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't have to be that way. I shouldn't have to get together as many documents and copies as humanly possible and hope the person behind the counter is in a good mood that day. I shouldn't have to cross my fingers that the person behind the desk knows how to do their job. I shouldn't automatically distrust any official information I'm given. The occasional mixup is fine and 100% understandable, but when I (and many others) have to make extra trips every single year because every employee has their own unique list of requirements... that's not ok, and it's most certainly not my fault.
Gringation: Amen. The list INM gave on the website, has never(since my arrival), been the same as I got from the office itself. The best ones are what the officer adds with a pen, after handing the printed list over... Wouldn't it be peaches and cream if the lists were exactly the same? Its easy to coordinate it - they just need to figure it out. Regarding the change of address: INM never told me about that, and I only learned it from CFE when changing the address... Its INM´s job to inform people about the rules, rather than shut up and cash in 2 years later. INM has certainly changed for the better, but its far from what one could/should expect. Maybe they should switch a bigger building to start with? Separate sections for different errands, rather than the regular runaround? Its getting there, even if its with the speed of a handicapped snail.
This is where it can get deep, because the degree to which people cling to that thought affects how successfully they can deal with things that aren't the way they should be. The more distressed we get, as we consider how things ought to be, the more incapable we get of thinking clearly, and dealing with things the way they are. All of us can find things we don't think should be the way they are, and that's where the Serenity Prayer can be a lesson to us because there's so much we cannot truly change, and so much energy can be wasted kicking against those very things. ______________________ That some stumble when it comes to these creaky legal/bureaucratic processes, when they are very successful in most every other area of life, doesn't surprise me at all: the illogic, unfairness, and uneveness we find in them just doesn't fit well into our general understanding of life, and frustrates most attempts to make sense of it.
V: Agree with a lot of what you say in the last post, but when an authority has the right to fine you thanks to their rules and regulations, they are the ones that should let you know. That should be included from the first second one steps inside the INM office for the very first time, or goes online. On every bill, ever credit card statement etc, there are printed rules. Why should a serious thing like INM be excepted? It can be short: "Please note that failure to report change of address can resort in a fine." Taa-daa I dont think its INM itself, but rather the particular person that handles your thing that day. Ive had some helpful people, but Ive also had the ones that added their own stuff on the list, and then yelled at me when I did NOT present stuff he/she didnt even tell me about. Easiest way would be to print it on the same paper that has the requirements, and if its a very common thing(change of address), then put some nice reminders for those who need it. I shouldnt have to hear it from a CFE worker, haha.
I think Steve hit the nail on the head and I think V, TraceyUK and I, all having gone through the system quite recently, have been the beneficiaries the "huge changes in the last few months". I think it was pretty "fine and dandy" for us. I am no chef but when I cook, I try to follow the recipe to the letter. The same goes for dealing with INM. I imagine the Rentista version of things is easier than what those who are employees have to deal with. And I imagine that those who are self employed have more hoops through which to jump than do those of you who are employees. All that said, all I have done for the past two years is go to the INM website, wander around to where I need to go and fill out the forms. I make multiple copies of everything so if by chance they later tell me I omitted something, I have another complete copy of my submission package. But this only happened the first time I applied for my FM3 and used my attorney, who taught me the multiple copies thing. If one has any doubt as to what they need to bring it is not that difficult to go stand in the Information line and ask. I did essentially that to find out the difference if any, in what I needed to bring if going from FM3 to FM2. It does take a bit of followup but so do a lot of things in life, expecially if you are a parent. LOL. V made some nice compliments about me for which I am grateful but he sort of paved the way for me last year and this year as he had jumped through the exact same hoops a couple of months before I did and I thank him publicly, as I did privately, for his assistance. One thing V failed to mention is that I always show up with a smile on my face and keep it there the entire time. I say "thank you" at every possible opportunity. I don't try to argue or intimidate or threaten as all of that is counter productive. Sort of like getting on the No Fly list. If I feel something needs to be argued I do it in the form of a question and let them give me the answer, which I already know, or think I do. (Jim-I am referring only to governmental dealings here. LOL) In summary, I think those of you who have upcoming applications to make you will find a huge improvement in everything but the lines. But go in with your ducks in a row and that I am so happy to be here smile on your face. Ask me, V or Tracey as we are hot off the press and satisfied customers.
Rawkus, Sorry about your fine for not notifying INM of your move. Not sure how I came to know of this requirement but I did. And when I moved to a different apt in the same building I went to INM and they took care of it in a couple of days. When I bought my apt and the title showed I owned Apt 2 instead of Int B, as was shown of my FM3, off I went again to get this in compliance. No big deal but it was the correct thing to do under their regulations. You would be in a worse mess if you changed jobs and did not go running straight and fast to INM to report it. Good luck. It seems bad luck follows you all the way to INM. You can probably change it if you pick up a few pointers from this and other related threads. A happy ending is in your future. No, not that kind of happy ending.
TJ: I didnt get fined, Gringation was the "lucky" one. I just tried to touch the subject, so to speak. Im happy the CFE worker that checked our meter told me about it. My point was that not everything is up to the applicant, as there are TWO parties involved: You and INM. Ive always done my part, which is more than I can say about INM. I do think its their job to say "hey, guess what! If/when you change address, please notify us." It shouldnt be up to the applicant to scribble down +50 questions. In case of last years messy renewal process: What more should I have done, besides follow their exact instructions(which I did from day 1)? I submitted everything they asked for, I was patient(9 months of patient, lol) and I went back, daily, for more than 4 weeks, only to be told "come back tomorrow...". Even Mauricio couldnt get any info out of them regarding last years strange experience... I do tend to give them way more time than they tell me, but I also have a limit on the amount of crap I can take, and when that limit is crossed, I resort to other options(tools, if you like), such as "El Jefe" in DF. These things require that both parties do their part. Im wondering if the categories might have something to do with it all? The retirees I know, have zero problems renewing, whilst many of the ex-pats I know that work, have had roadblocks way worse than my previous ones. INM is heading in the right direction, which is all I care about right now.
I have a friend, a Rentista, who could not renew because they could not verify enough income/bank deposits to meet the minimum. It was easy to solve with getting more money into the account, then when it posted, printed and submitted new statements that collectively met the requirement. It's pretty easy but not infallible.
Of course they do, Rawkus. But, consider that my very first application to the INM was for permission to work independently- which would mean I would be able to accept any lawful employment or contract for work in my field- and it was granted. I inquired in writing (just to see if my understanding was shared by them), and the INM, Cancun, attorney agreed that this grant of permission to work was coequal to that of a Mexican Citizen. As a consequence, when I decided to accept employment it wasn't necessary to ask for permission, each time. I spent a great many hours researching this, online; and, just to be sure my conclusions were right, I consulted with Mauricio about it, beforehand. (By the way, he doesn't charge much for a consult, is a nice man, and knows his stuff!) Then, at the end of the first year on the FM3, I asked to go to FM2, which was granted (and I still have this broad permission to work, not tied to any employer). Six months before the end of my second year on FM2, I'll be eligible to apply for naturalization if I want it (and I've learned enough Spanish!). I ask you, does this sound typical? Probably not. But, it's all in the Mexican Immigration Law for those who take the time to read it, who qualify for it, and who can find the way to properly request it from the INM. _______________________ By officially taking a job, and asking for permission to perform it, I would think you would escape from being classified an economic dependent for INM purposes. Don't you think so, too?
